Any advice given on this subject is much appreciated!!

Just an hour and a half ago we received the news that my fiance
was not on the unofficial list of names of those students who had
received the Pilot and NFO slots. He attends the United States
Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York which is one of the
federal service academies. He has worked his butt of to get great
scores on all the tests for the navy aviator slots. Unfortunately we
receievd the bad news today. He's trying to get over his
disappointment but this is really getting to him because this has been
his dream since he was a little boy at one of the Aircraft shows. Upon
graduating this school in June he will be a commissioned officer in
the Naval Reserve however I know he will still long to be a naval
pilot. He has a great gpa, was the Company Fitness Officer so he
passed all the physical test with no problem, went on pilot
internships, and scored 7/9 on the avaiation test, which i hear is
suppose to be really well. Is there any hope of getting in from this
point on?

On Apr 17, 4:52 pm, wrote:
> Any advice given on this subject is much appreciated!!
>
> Just an hour and a half ago we received the news that my fiance
> was not on the unofficial list of names of those students who had
> received the Pilot and NFO slots. He attends the United States
> Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York which is one of the
> federal service academies. He has worked his butt of to get great
> scores on all the tests for the navy aviator slots. Unfortunately we
> receievd the bad news today. He's trying to get over his
> disappointment but this is really getting to him because this has been
> his dream since he was a little boy at one of the Aircraft shows. Upon
> graduating this school in June he will be a commissioned officer in
> the Naval Reserve however I know he will still long to be a naval
> pilot. He has a great gpa, was the Company Fitness Officer so he
> passed all the physical test with no problem, went on pilot
> internships, and scored 7/9 on the avaiation test, which i hear is
> suppose to be really well. Is there any hope of getting in from this
> point on?

Does he have a commitment from the MMA? If not, maybe quit, finish
college and re-apply for AOCS(?)

Not a lot of people getting ouit these days w./o the airlines hiring...

On 17 Apr 2007 16:52:40 -0700, wrote:

>Any advice given on this subject is much appreciated!!

>suppose to be really well. Is there any hope of getting in from this
>point on?

What obligation will he have after graduation from the MMA and how
does that affect his ability to get an aviation slot (what guidance
does he have from the school on this?)?

I honestly have never heard of any aviators that came this route, even
when I was in the NAVAIR Training Command in the 70's and 80's when
the need for pilots was greater than now. Not that it does not happen,
just have not known anyone.

At this moment, I would think that with most airlines not hiring there
is a high retention rate. Combined with a lot of squadrons getting
decommissioned, that does not leave a lot of slots for new guys.

My suspicion is that the few slots are being taken by more traditional
sources (Naval Academy, ROTC and AOCS).

I agree with another poster - if obligation to the merchant marine is
not an issue, get down to the Navy Recruiting Office and try to get
into the AOCS program (this is for folks who did not go to USNA or
ROTC and want to get into aviation - ever watch the movie "An Officer
and a Gentleman"?). This is your best bet at this point and the
program a lot of us on this group went through, or it's cousin, the
AVROC program. AOCS is for those who have graduated from college, the
AVROC program no longer exists but it allowed one to go to Pensacola
for 8 weeks between Jr and Sr years, then complete the remaining 8
weeks after graduation. This was what I did in 72 and 73.

There used to be a program for the folks from the USNA and ROTC who
already were commissioned and I imagine that there still is. I've been
retired for 10 years now and have not kept up.

Just make sure you are talking to an Officer Programs Recruiter.

PS: AOCS = Aviation Officer Candidate
AVROC - Aviation Reserve Officer Candidate

John Alger USN(ret)
1972-1997 // 1310,1320
TA-4J, A-7E, EC-130Q, P-3B

On 2007-04-17 18:31:15 -0700, John > said:

> I honestly have never heard of any aviators that came this route, even
> when I was in the NAVAIR Training Command in the 70's and 80's when
> the need for pilots was greater than now. Not that it does not happen,
> just have not known anyone.

Why would someone even go the Merchant Marine route in the first place
if they were dreaming of a career as a naval aviator? The Navy looks
down their collective nose at the merchant marine sailors, always have.
He would probably had a better shot for a pilot slot by getting his BS
in aeronautical engineering at someplace like Purdue via the NROTC
route.


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"Bill Baker" > wrote in message
...
> On 2007-04-17 18:31:15 -0700, John > said:
>
>> I honestly have never heard of any aviators that came this route, even
>> when I was in the NAVAIR Training Command in the 70's and 80's when
>> the need for pilots was greater than now. Not that it does not happen,
>> just have not known anyone.

We have one in strike training right now. Female, solid student, MMA grad.

> Why would someone even go the Merchant Marine route in the first place if
> they were dreaming of a career as a naval aviator? The Navy looks down
> their collective nose at the merchant marine sailors, always have. He
> would probably had a better shot for a pilot slot by getting his BS in
> aeronautical engineering at someplace like Purdue via the NROTC route.

Perhaps that was the appointment offered? It varies year to year, but
competition for an appointment at one of the service academies is fierce.
So, you may go for USNA (USMA, USAFA, whatever) and your congressman says,
"Sorry, can't make it work. How about MMA?"

To the original post. How did our MMA guy do on the flight physical? When
I did mine (back when Moby Dick was a minnow) they culled the USNA grads by
making the physical (particularly the eye exam) a high hurdle. OTOH, I've
seen students lately who showed up wearing glasses to get to 20/20
corrected.

R / John

In article >,
John > wrote:


> >Any advice given on this subject is much appreciated!!
>
> >suppose to be really well. Is there any hope of getting in from this
> >point on?
>
> What obligation will he have after graduation from the MMA and how
> does that affect his ability to get an aviation slot (what guidance
> does he have from the school on this?)?
>
> I honestly have never heard of any aviators that came this route, even
> when I was in the NAVAIR Training Command in the 70's and 80's when
> the need for pilots was greater than now. Not that it does not happen,
> just have not known anyone.


My step-brother became a naval aviator (HSL/SH-60B) through Kings Point
route in the late 80's.


--Mike

Keep applying every year and go see the Ensign detailer at Main Navy in D.
C.

"...better shot for a pilot slot by getting his BS in aeronautical
engineering...."

An engineering degree would have no bearing on selection for flight
training.

- From an old, no longer bold, naval aviator

end

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:45:34 -0700, "W. D. Allen"
> wrote:

>"...better shot for a pilot slot by getting his BS in aeronautical
>engineering...."
>
>An engineering degree would have no bearing on selection for flight
>training.
>
> - From an old, no longer bold, naval aviator
>
>end
>
One can be both old and bold. And, once a tactical aviator, always a
tac aviator. It's sort of like that Marine thing---once, then always.
(With a couple of highly recognized exceptions...)

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On 2007-04-19 12:45:34 -0700, "W. D. Allen" > said:

> "...better shot for a pilot slot by getting his BS in aeronautical
> engineering...."
>
> An engineering degree would have no bearing on selection for flight training.

In peacetime, when there are few flight school slots available and the
services are being really picky, is that strictly true? I know what
you're saying, that the degree field of a candidates BA/BS is not a
major criteria for selection. But when the intake evaluators are
choosing among a large number of really good candidates, at some point
wouldn't they start looking down the checklist and start considering
things like what flavor of degree you hold?


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On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:26:44 -0700, Bill Baker >
wrote:


>> An engineering degree would have no bearing on selection for flight training.
>
>In peacetime, when there are few flight school slots available and the
>services are being really picky, is that strictly true?

Actually it is true. Degree does not seem to matter. Back in the 80's
when I was working on a masters, I was also a contract simulator
instructor at my old training base (Chase) and did an analysis for my
statistics class of degrees vs completions. What I found was that
there was absolutley no correlation between the type of degree and the
succsess (or failure) of the prospective naval aviator.

This was also a time when there was a relative surplus of pilots, so
they could be choosy. What I found was that while there was an
expectedly high percentage of "hard science" degrees, the recruiters
did not seem to care - there appreared to be something more in the
prospects background that got them selected. However, that was not the
focus of my study and I did not have data to go in that direction.

John Alger USN(ret)
1972-1997 // 1310,1320
TA-4J, A-7E, EC-130Q, P-3B

As a career Naval Aviator with experience, albeit dated, in both the Training Command and OPNAV, I've watched this thread spin out with some interest. As the Director of Research at the National Defense University in one of my prior incarnations, I was privy to a study substantiating your remarks. When launched on a quest to find the "Prime Indicator of Success" - the Holy Grail of the Nugget Watchers - the study I am most familiar with came up with the revolutionary but counterintuitive conclusion that it was not being an Eagle Scout or a BS in AE or the kind of a baby that quit nursing every time an airplane flew over but whether or not the candidate - get this - had a paper route.

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Bill Baker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2007-04-17 18:31:15 -0700, John > said:
>>
>>> I honestly have never heard of any aviators that came this route, even
>>> when I was in the NAVAIR Training Command in the 70's and 80's when
>>> the need for pilots was greater than now. Not that it does not happen,
>>> just have not known anyone.
>
> We have one in strike training right now. Female, solid student, MMA
> grad.
>
>> Why would someone even go the Merchant Marine route in the first place if
>> they were dreaming of a career as a naval aviator? The Navy looks down
>> their collective nose at the merchant marine sailors, always have. He
>> would probably had a better shot for a pilot slot by getting his BS in
>> aeronautical engineering at someplace like Purdue via the NROTC route.
>
> Perhaps that was the appointment offered? It varies year to year, but
> competition for an appointment at one of the service academies is fierce.
> So, you may go for USNA (USMA, USAFA, whatever) and your congressman says,
> "Sorry, can't make it work. How about MMA?"
>
> To the original post. How did our MMA guy do on the flight physical?
> When I did mine (back when Moby Dick was a minnow) they culled the USNA
> grads by making the physical (particularly the eye exam) a high hurdle.
> OTOH, I've seen students lately who showed up wearing glasses to get to
> 20/20 corrected.
>
> R / John

Ah yes..... the old eye test trick. If you had too many with obviously
better than 20-20 vision, the "color perception" test was brought into play.

But you can't blame the NAVY they spent all that money teaching naval
engineering, strategy and tactics just so everyone that wanted to could
zooming around the sky.

The same thing often happened to NAVCAD's/MARCAD's. The programs were often
used as a recruiting tool to get highly qualified people.

....And since most paper routes are today the province of adults above the flight training cut-off age, many of whom in my neck of the woods are also recent immigrants, I wonder what the "prime indicator of success" might now be?

--
Mike Kanze (teenage newspaper carrier for the Alameda Times-Star)

"The secret of charm is bull****."

- Tyrone Power

"Boomerang" > wrote in message ...
As a career Naval Aviator with experience, albeit dated, in both the Training Command and OPNAV, I've watched this thread spin out with some interest. As the Director of Research at the National Defense University in one of my prior incarnations, I was privy to a study substantiating your remarks. When launched on a quest to find the "Prime Indicator of Success" - the Holy Grail of the Nugget Watchers - the study I am most familiar with came up with the revolutionary but counterintuitive conclusion that it was not being an Eagle Scout or a BS in AE or the kind of a baby that quit nursing every time an airplane flew over but whether or not the candidate - get this - had a paper route.

In pre-flight 1959 (OI-23-59) a pt instructor on the trampoline was a
sun-bleached blonde, older man (60's?) in terrific shape who told us
that he had kept records for upward of 10 years, and he found that
performance on the trampoline was a good predictor of success in the
training command. Some may remember the two seaplane hangars used as
gyms, the western-most one had the trampolines in the seaward side, the
eastern one was the gym. Who could forget running "figure-8's" around
those two hangars with Antietam parked down the seawall.

Student intake seemed to be about 2,000/year with OI classes weekly, and
AOC classes alternating weekly with MARCAD/NAVCAD classes - the latter
being a quick way to increase (or decrease) input. But it must be
remembered that nugget NA's in VP/VW/VR/VAH/ZP would serve as navigators
or bombardiers, there being no NFO programs yet. In Heavy Attack A-3's,
the officially (Douglas) labeled "bombardier-assistant pilot" could be a
nugget NA, an NAO(B) (both trained by the RAG,) or an enlisted
Aircrewman bombardier also trained by the RAG in Sanford or Whidbey. The
first "true" NAO/NFO slot was the "Phantom Pherret" of the F4H-2/F-4B
Phantom II, also RAG trained (first combat deployment of the Phantom was
VF-74 Bedevilers with CAG-8 on Forrestal, Med cruise departing 8/62;
replacing VF-102 F4D Skyrays.)
J. McEachen VAH-5

Boomerang wrote:
> As a career Naval Aviator with experience, albeit dated, in both the
> Training Command and OPNAV, I've watched this thread spin out with some
> interest. As the Director of Research at the National Defense
> University in one of my prior incarnations, I was privy to a study
> substantiating your remarks. When launched on a quest to find the
> "Prime Indicator of Success" - the Holy Grail of the Nugget Watchers -
> the study I am most familiar with came up with the revolutionary but
> counterintuitive conclusion that it was not being an Eagle Scout or a BS
> in AE or the kind of a baby that quit nursing every time an airplane
> flew over but whether or not the candidate - get this - had a paper route.

J.McEachen wrote
> In pre-flight 1959 (OI-23-59) a pt instructor on the trampoline was a
> sun-bleached blonde, older man (60's?) in terrific shape......

I remember him well......

Bob Moore
Class 12-58
PanAm (retired)

I vowed I'd stay out of this, but the second paragraph of your post makes
the good point that the institution of the NAO community, beginning with
VT-10 in about '60 or '61, substantially changed the 1310 pipeline. I did a
Department Head tour in VP in 63-65 with the 1310s carrying the NavBag but
the new term "TACCO" for the 1320 NAOs slowly entering the lexicon. Later,
in my command tour of the first P3C outfit, "NAO power" had become reality
and the community had come into its own, as it had in VAH, VQ and in the
tailhook outfits you mention. (I'm given to understand that nowadays
another factor in the pipeline "input and throughput" - Training Command
jargon - is the impact of Lasix surgery eyesight correction which
substantially increases the pool of 20-20 candidates.) Remains to be seen
whether this post or the previous ones help the initial poster but it's good
to have a real Naval Aviation thread once in awhile.


"J.McEachen" > wrote in message
. ..
> In pre-flight 1959 (OI-23-59) a pt instructor on the trampoline was a
> sun-bleached blonde, older man (60's?) in terrific shape who told us that
> he had kept records for upward of 10 years, and he found that performance
> on the trampoline was a good predictor of success in the training command.
> Some may remember the two seaplane hangars used as gyms, the western-most
> one had the trampolines in the seaward side, the eastern one was the gym.
> Who could forget running "figure-8's" around those two hangars with
> Antietam parked down the seawall.
>
> Student intake seemed to be about 2,000/year with OI classes weekly, and
> AOC classes alternating weekly with MARCAD/NAVCAD classes - the latter
> being a quick way to increase (or decrease) input. But it must be
> remembered that nugget NA's in VP/VW/VR/VAH/ZP would serve as navigators
> or bombardiers, there being no NFO programs yet. In Heavy Attack A-3's,
> the officially (Douglas) labeled "bombardier-assistant pilot" could be a
> nugget NA, an NAO(B) (both trained by the RAG,) or an enlisted Aircrewman
> bombardier also trained by the RAG in Sanford or Whidbey. The first "true"
> NAO/NFO slot was the "Phantom Pherret" of the F4H-2/F-4B Phantom II, also
> RAG trained (first combat deployment of the Phantom was VF-74 Bedevilers
> with CAG-8 on Forrestal, Med cruise departing 8/62; replacing VF-102 F4D
> Skyrays.)
> J. McEachen VAH-5
>
> Boomerang wrote:
>> As a career Naval Aviator with experience, albeit dated, in both the
>> Training Command and OPNAV, I've watched this thread spin out with some
>> interest. As the Director of Research at the National Defense University
>> in one of my prior incarnations, I was privy to a study substantiating
>> your remarks. When launched on a quest to find the "Prime Indicator of
>> Success" - the Holy Grail of the Nugget Watchers - the study I am most
>> familiar with came up with the revolutionary but counterintuitive
>> conclusion that it was not being an Eagle Scout or a BS in AE or the kind
>> of a baby that quit nursing every time an airplane flew over but whether
>> or not the candidate - get this - had a paper route.

>beginning with VT-10 in about '60 or '61

Very small niggle: VT-10 as a command by that name was not established until 1968. Prior to that time it was Basic Naval Aviation Officers School (BNAO School, "Banana School").

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/tw6/vt10/history.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/navy/vt-10.htm

The change came during a ~5 year period which saw the retitling of Naval Aviation Observers (NAOs) as Naval Flight Officers (NFOs), NFOs becoming eligible for command of aviation units (squadrons, carriers, etc.), and the change in the wings to the current double-fouled anchor design. ("Takes twice as much to hold us down!")

--
Mike Kanze

"The secret of charm is bull****."

- Tyrone Power

"Harriet and John" > wrote in message ...
I vowed I'd stay out of this, but the second paragraph of your post makes
the good point that the institution of the NAO community, beginning with
VT-10 in about '60 or '61, substantially changed the 1310 pipeline. I did a
Department Head tour in VP in 63-65 with the 1310s carrying the NavBag but
the new term "TACCO" for the 1320 NAOs slowly entering the lexicon. Later,
in my command tour of the first P3C outfit, "NAO power" had become reality
and the community had come into its own, as it had in VAH, VQ and in the
tailhook outfits you mention. (I'm given to understand that nowadays
another factor in the pipeline "input and throughput" - Training Command
jargon - is the impact of Lasix surgery eyesight correction which
substantially increases the pool of 20-20 candidates.) Remains to be seen
whether this post or the previous ones help the initial poster but it's good
to have a real Naval Aviation thread once in awhile.


"J.McEachen" > wrote in message
. ..
> In pre-flight 1959 (OI-23-59) a pt instructor on the trampoline was a
> sun-bleached blonde, older man (60's?) in terrific shape who told us that
> he had kept records for upward of 10 years, and he found that performance
> on the trampoline was a good predictor of success in the training command.
> Some may remember the two seaplane hangars used as gyms, the western-most
> one had the trampolines in the seaward side, the eastern one was the gym.
> Who could forget running "figure-8's" around those two hangars with
> Antietam parked down the seawall.
>
> Student intake seemed to be about 2,000/year with OI classes weekly, and
> AOC classes alternating weekly with MARCAD/NAVCAD classes - the latter
> being a quick way to increase (or decrease) input. But it must be
> remembered that nugget NA's in VP/VW/VR/VAH/ZP would serve as navigators
> or bombardiers, there being no NFO programs yet. In Heavy Attack A-3's,
> the officially (Douglas) labeled "bombardier-assistant pilot" could be a
> nugget NA, an NAO(B) (both trained by the RAG,) or an enlisted Aircrewman
> bombardier also trained by the RAG in Sanford or Whidbey. The first "true"
> NAO/NFO slot was the "Phantom Pherret" of the F4H-2/F-4B Phantom II, also
> RAG trained (first combat deployment of the Phantom was VF-74 Bedevilers
> with CAG-8 on Forrestal, Med cruise departing 8/62; replacing VF-102 F4D
> Skyrays.)
> J. McEachen VAH-5
>
> Boomerang wrote:
>> As a career Naval Aviator with experience, albeit dated, in both the
>> Training Command and OPNAV, I've watched this thread spin out with some
>> interest. As the Director of Research at the National Defense University
>> in one of my prior incarnations, I was privy to a study substantiating
>> your remarks. When launched on a quest to find the "Prime Indicator of
>> Success" - the Holy Grail of the Nugget Watchers - the study I am most
>> familiar with came up with the revolutionary but counterintuitive
>> conclusion that it was not being an Eagle Scout or a BS in AE or the kind
>> of a baby that quit nursing every time an airplane flew over but whether
>> or not the candidate - get this - had a paper route.

Coulda sworn it was VT-10, but you know what I mean. At my age, I confuse kids with their dads and granddads every so often....
"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message . ..
>beginning with VT-10 in about '60 or '61

Very small niggle: VT-10 as a command by that name was not established until 1968. Prior to that time it was Basic Naval Aviation Officers School (BNAO School, "Banana School").

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/tw6/vt10/history.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/navy/vt-10.htm

The change came during a ~5 year period which saw the retitling of Naval Aviation Observers (NAOs) as Naval Flight Officers (NFOs), NFOs becoming eligible for command of aviation units (squadrons, carriers, etc.), and the change in the wings to the current double-fouled anchor design. ("Takes twice as much to hold us down!")

--
Mike Kanze

"The secret of charm is bull****."

- Tyrone Power

"Harriet and John" > wrote in message ...
I vowed I'd stay out of this, but the second paragraph of your post makes
the good point that the institution of the NAO community, beginning with
VT-10 in about '60 or '61, substantially changed the 1310 pipeline. I did a
Department Head tour in VP in 63-65 with the 1310s carrying the NavBag but
the new term "TACCO" for the 1320 NAOs slowly entering the lexicon. Later,
in my command tour of the first P3C outfit, "NAO power" had become reality
and the community had come into its own, as it had in VAH, VQ and in the
tailhook outfits you mention. (I'm given to understand that nowadays
another factor in the pipeline "input and throughput" - Training Command
jargon - is the impact of Lasix surgery eyesight correction which
substantially increases the pool of 20-20 candidates.) Remains to be seen
whether this post or the previous ones help the initial poster but it's good
to have a real Naval Aviation thread once in awhile.


"J.McEachen" > wrote in message
. ..
> In pre-flight 1959 (OI-23-59) a pt instructor on the trampoline was a
> sun-bleached blonde, older man (60's?) in terrific shape who told us that
> he had kept records for upward of 10 years, and he found that performance
> on the trampoline was a good predictor of success in the training command.
> Some may remember the two seaplane hangars used as gyms, the western-most
> one had the trampolines in the seaward side, the eastern one was the gym.
> Who could forget running "figure-8's" around those two hangars with
> Antietam parked down the seawall.
>
> Student intake seemed to be about 2,000/year with OI classes weekly, and
> AOC classes alternating weekly with MARCAD/NAVCAD classes - the latter
> being a quick way to increase (or decrease) input. But it must be
> remembered that nugget NA's in VP/VW/VR/VAH/ZP would serve as navigators
> or bombardiers, there being no NFO programs yet. In Heavy Attack A-3's,
> the officially (Douglas) labeled "bombardier-assistant pilot" could be a
> nugget NA, an NAO(B) (both trained by the RAG,) or an enlisted Aircrewman
> bombardier also trained by the RAG in Sanford or Whidbey. The first "true"
> NAO/NFO slot was the "Phantom Pherret" of the F4H-2/F-4B Phantom II, also
> RAG trained (first combat deployment of the Phantom was VF-74 Bedevilers
> with CAG-8 on Forrestal, Med cruise departing 8/62; replacing VF-102 F4D
> Skyrays.)
> J. McEachen VAH-5
>
> Boomerang wrote:
>> As a career Naval Aviator with experience, albeit dated, in both the
>> Training Command and OPNAV, I've watched this thread spin out with some
>> interest. As the Director of Research at the National Defense University
>> in one of my prior incarnations, I was privy to a study substantiating
>> your remarks. When launched on a quest to find the "Prime Indicator of
>> Success" - the Holy Grail of the Nugget Watchers - the study I am most
>> familiar with came up with the revolutionary but counterintuitive
>> conclusion that it was not being an Eagle Scout or a BS in AE or the kind
>> of a baby that quit nursing every time an airplane flew over but whether
>> or not the candidate - get this - had a paper route.

In the previous article, Harriet and John >
wrote:
> (I'm given to understand that nowadays another factor in the
> pipeline "input and throughput" - Training Command jargon - is the
> impact of Lasix surgery eyesight correction which substantially
> increases the pool of 20-20 candidates.)

Lasix is a medication for people with high blood pressure and other
cardiovascular problems. LASIK is an acronym for a popular eye
surgery to correct vision. LASIK will disqualify you absolutely and
irrevocably from any kind of military aviation.

The Navy, at the moment, is performing PRK, a completely different and
much older kind of eye surgery on some candidates who are then
eligible for SNA status if correction to 20/20 is successful.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / |to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Guess I shoulda stayed out of it, huh?

"J.D. Baldwin" > wrote in message
...
>
> In the previous article, Harriet and John >
> wrote:
>> (I'm given to understand that nowadays another factor in the
>> pipeline "input and throughput" - Training Command jargon - is the
>> impact of Lasix surgery eyesight correction which substantially
>> increases the pool of 20-20 candidates.)
>
> Lasix is a medication for people with high blood pressure and other
> cardiovascular problems. LASIK is an acronym for a popular eye
> surgery to correct vision. LASIK will disqualify you absolutely and
> irrevocably from any kind of military aviation.
>
> The Navy, at the moment, is performing PRK, a completely different and
> much older kind of eye surgery on some candidates who are then
> eligible for SNA status if correction to 20/20 is successful.
> --
> _+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make,
> I
> _|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but
> also
> \ / |to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T.
> Lehrer
> ***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hillary - there are always many reasons and one of the 1st ones you get
with these kinds of lists is that your future hubby simply missed the
quota, that is the list filled before he got into the final cut. Sounds
to me he has some immediate options "after" he gets his Reserve
Commission - and remember the Navy is cutting the Reserve forces
drastically to the point there will be no aviation reserves down the
road so the mix-mash of who's and what's may just put him in the wrong
place.

Before he graduates he may want to see if the USAF will take him in a
interservice transfer, but the USAF is cutting 44,000 yet again being at
the bottom of the pile may help here. And then he can pull a George
Bush, that is look to the National Guard for an appointment but the
Guard is not the "skaters" dream job anymore, it is the tip of the
spear - hence he may have a good chance to fill a billet within a year
or so and then after graduation he can pursue (at great expense but
great value) his commercial license while he serves in the Reserves of
the Navy and holds a day job. The aero crap and whatever mean nothing
if he can pass the flight perception and spatial orientation tests and
has the attitude of a killer - so he will then keep pressing. The
academics will start to count if he gets to Test Pilot school, but he
has to get his feet pointed first.

Pursue commercial and military flying at the same time, make them
overlap and twist together until something fits. if not buy XBot or
Playstation. Keep your eyes and hands safe - stay in shape and don't
let up.



> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Any advice given on this subject is much appreciated!!
>
> Just an hour and a half ago we received the news that my fiance
> was not on the unofficial list of names of those students who had
> received the Pilot and NFO slots. He attends the United States
> Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York which is one of the
> federal service academies. He has worked his butt of to get great
> scores on all the tests for the navy aviator slots. Unfortunately we
> receievd the bad news today. He's trying to get over his
> disappointment but this is really getting to him because this has been
> his dream since he was a little boy at one of the Aircraft shows. Upon
> graduating this school in June he will be a commissioned officer in
> the Naval Reserve however I know he will still long to be a naval
> pilot. He has a great gpa, was the Company Fitness Officer so he
> passed all the physical test with no problem, went on pilot
> internships, and scored 7/9 on the avaiation test, which i hear is
> suppose to be really well. Is there any hope of getting in from this
> point on?
>
>

I remember those old NAO wings. In some ways I like them better than the current NFO wings (but they're cool too!)

An interesting note: While BNAO School was the forerunner to VT 10 not all early NAO's went through it. In the late 1950's a number of enlisted aviation types were detailed into NAO duties until enough junior officers could be procured for fleet duty. A few were promoted to chief warrant officer and continued into the commissioned ranks. This was a "band-aid" fix until enough JO's could finish the training pipeline.

Still...there were a few others who became designated NAO in a somewhat irregular fashion. My father being one of them.

Dad entered the Navy in 1958 through OCS at Newport. Given his college degree the Navy figured he would be commissioned in the Supply Corps and serve on destroyers. An afternnoon out at sea convinced my father that these navy higher-ups had made a grave error in judgement. He managed to get orders to air intelligence school and spent time at NAS Anacostia and Jacksonville. There he was introduced to Naval Aviators (in those days that meant pilots...and nobody else!) and got orders to pre-flight and VT 14 in Pensacola area (always got the various fields mixed up). He did well in academics but experienced deafness during ascent and descent.

Dad appeared before a board and was basically told he was physically unqualified to continue, but he could have his choice of community type as an intel officer and even offered him duty with the then ENTERPRISE Pre-Comm unit. He looked directly at them and said, "I want to FLY NAVY!" The board members looked at him wondering if his hearing issues extended beyond the cockpit. However, one officer said...that still might be possible if he was willing to accept orders to Argentia, Newfoundland, Canada flying Barrier Patrols in the North Atlantic in an Airborne Early Warning Squadron.

At this time folks were going through the NAO training course in Corpus Christi, but as one board member stated..."you've been to enough navy schools, it's time you joined the fleet."

Being a serving naval reserve ensign Dad didn't really know what AEW Barrier Patrol meant or really understand where Argentia was (nor did he particularly care) he found himself flying WV 2's with VW 11. And it's just as well he went along with the plan because it was in Argentia where he met Mom!

Less than a year into his Argentia tour and after many LONG patrol flights navigating (without the privilege of wearing wings!), a detailer from BUPERS came and gathered all the young reserve ensigns and explained what bleak prospects they had....except...the navy was actively trying to "grow" NAO's and they might want to consider this option.

It sounded like a great idea to Dad and about six months later he had orders in hand for FAETULANT in Norfolk, with follow on orders to VP 30 in Jacksonville. He actually earned his designation as a NAO (B/N) in Norfolk and received authorization to finally wear the wings after arriving in Jacksonville. It wasn't until he arrived at his first operational VP squadron that the term "TACCO" distinguished NAO's in the maritime patrol community from other NAO's.

He recalls the change in designation from NAO to NFO sometime in 1965 while he was a member of ship's company onboard LEXINGTON. As a youngster I remember him wearing the NAO wings while stationed at NAS New York (Dad recalls the new wings coming available in 1968 with a year for folks to make the transition). Regardless, by the time we arrived at NAS Brunswick in 1970, he wore the NFO wings.

Personally I liked the old NAO wings. Dad wore several different versions depending on what uniform was worn. I suspect two of the versions were "unofficial." For many years he had on the wall a simple small shadow box with the three different versions of NAO wings that he wore with the words, "The End of An Era" typed in between.